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ANNUAL MEETING: Dhamma Giri, India January 10, 1998

Questioner: Guruji, how do you select your trustees, assistant teachers and teachers from among the meditators?

Goenkaji: Ask me how I don’t select them. What are the reasons for not selecting somebody as an assistant teacher, trustee or other position?

You see, this is more or less a new tradition—the responsibility has fallen on me to start a new tradition of householder teachers of Vipassana.

We are very grateful to Venerable Ledi Sayadaw who, a hundred years back, was the first person who broke the barrier. Before that Vipassana was limited only to the bhikkhus. He said, "Why only bhikkhus? Even lay people must also learn Vipassana." And he started teaching householders. Then he opened another gate for the householders—there must be householder teachers also. He appointed the first lay teacher of Vipassana—Saya Thetgyi. That was a big opening, because he saw the future very well. Now 2,500 years are going to be completed, and the next Buddha-sāsana [period of time in which the teaching of the Buddha is available] is going to start.

In countries where the people are followers of Buddha—or at least they call themselves Buddhist—and a bhikkhu sits on the Dhamma seat, they are very happy, they will accept everything that he says and follow him. But in so-called non-Buddhist countries, if a bhikkhu goes there and says, "Well, come to me, I will teach you Dhamma," nobody will come, they will all run away. They will think, "Oh, he has come to convert us from our organized religion to his organized religion." But if a layman teaches, that problem goes away. And the layman has to be very careful to make it clear that certainly we are not interested in converting people from one religion to another. So that is one reason why this tradition of lay teachers has started—because Ledi Sayadaw foresaw this need.

During Sayagyi U Ba Khin’s time there were very few students, and now the numbers are growing. So the tradition which is starting now must begin in a proper way. Any mistake that happens today will worsen as the generations pass. As far as my wisdom allows, as far as my intellect allows, I have to see that the beginning should be in a very pure way.

What is a pure way? Dhamma is so pure. The moment I come to know that some person has indicated that he or she wishes to be an assistant teacher, I feel very sorry for this person, but I have to draw a line—this person is not fit to be an assistant teacher. Somebody tries to indicate, "Well, if I become a trustee, it will be so good; I can do this, I can do this," they are blacklisted. Somebody gives me an indication that he wants to become a president or general secretary of a certain Vipassana organization—blacklisted.

However close this person may be to me, I don’t care, because this person has not ripened in Dhamma. He or she wants the position, the power, the status, which is more important for this person than serving. But suppose somebody comes to me and says, "I can serve in any way, but I want to serve. Look, I have so much time, please tell me which way to serve." If so, I start giving good marks. And when I find he or she is really doing selfless service without expecting any position, power, status, etc., then slowly this person is chosen.

Somebody may be chosen and later on I find they are developing more and more ego, they are becoming arrogant in dealing with people, generating nothing but aversion and hatred, harming themselves. I feel very compassionate towards this person, "Look, I am responsible for this person’s generating impurities. If I had not placed him or her in this high position, this person would not have generated this kind of ego, would not have used aggressive words, and would not have harmed people." It is better then to wait.

I can’t take the teachership away from that person, but I will take him or her away from that particular job and give another job. And I explain, "Well, this is your mistake. When you come out of it you will get a more important job—more important in the sense that you get more opportunities to serve more people, to help them develop in Dhamma." This becomes a big responsibility of a Dhamma teacher who wants to start a tradition of householders.

Also, when I notice that assistant teachers or trustees—people who have been given a responsible task—are intentionally or unintentionally forming a group with the thought, "This is a member of my group and I’d better support the person who is in my group, I’d better try to bring down the person who is not in my group"—then I realize these people have no Dhamma at all. Such things are all right in a political party, in all sorts of social organizations, but not in a pure Dhamma organization. The moment that starts, it becomes my duty to see that it is stopped here and now. Break these groups and don’t allow people to create this kind of situation.

This is not just for me, but also for the future principal teachers, so they have guidance on an ideal way of running Dhamma centres and Dhamma management. These points should be set now. So for this reason, even if I have made a mistake I will try to rectify it.

As I said, we cannot remove an assistant teacher because anybody who sits on the Dhamma seat and teaches Dhamma develops a rapport with their students. I don’t want to break that rapport. So that continues—unless it becomes totally unavoidable. In such a case, of course, I have to tell this person, "No, you are no longer an assistant teacher." This is very rare. It has happened, but it is very rare. But when it comes to trustees, management, etc., then certainly I would like to keep changing them. In a trust, every year they have to resign, and I may appoint somebody else, I may re-appoint some of them. Why? Not because there is anything wrong with them. But the trouble is, somebody in the same post for a long time may unintentionally, unconsciously, develop a kind of attachment, "I am the general secretary, nobody else can do this job. I am so perfect in it, I must continue. If I don’t continue the whole thing will collapse." What has happened? What is he doing? He starts feeling that he is indispensable. This is not Dhamma. So every year, change. Another reason is that more people should get opportunity to develop their pāramīs, more people should come into the fold of serving people, serving the students.

Whenever I ask a trustee, a president or a secretary to resign, from that moment his period of testing starts. I ask myself, "Now how he is serving? When this person was president he was serving with so much enthusiasm and working so hard. Now he’s no longer president or general secretary, what happens?" If I find that this person has lost all interest in Dhamma work, then he had been interested in the post to increase his own ego, and it had nothing to do with service. So I have compassion for this person and try to explain, try to bring him back to Dhamma. This is the job of a principal Dhamma teacher, to see that his Dhamma sons and daughters keep growing in Dhamma. It is very important. All these things happen and one observes. Another thing that has to be kept in mind is: This is now a tradition of lay teachers. At the time of Buddha there were householder teachers, but then later on only bhikkhus taught. When a bhikkhu lives according to the vinaya there is nothing wrong because he won’t accumulate wealth. He can’t accumulate wealth, only his needs are taken care of. If I see that a bhikkhu teacher does not keep himself governed according to the vinaya, he breaks vinaya, he is there just to accumulate money or this or that, then I realize he is not fit for that position. Well, that is a problem concerning bhikkhu teachers. But my concern is about lay teachers. I have to start a very healthy, wholesome tradition for the householder teachers; I have to be very careful.

Say somebody is made a teacher—assistant or senior or whatever it is—and he or she has no means of livelihood. As a householder this person has certain family responsibilities but no means of livelihood. Then possibly, because of this situation, he or she may start spreading the hands, "I want something. Look, my son, my daughter is sick, my son or daughter is going to be married, I have this or that family problem." And students, out of sympathy or respect for the teacher, may start giving donations. If this ever happens the whole tradition will get spoiled. So I have to examine whether this person whom I am going to appoint has at least the necessary income to maintain the family. If so, then it is perfectly all right. When I find this person has no means of livelihood, then however perfect he or she may be as a teacher, I don’t appoint them. It may look as if I am prejudiced against people who are poor, but actually if one becomes a teacher when one cannot support one’s family it would be very harmful to the tradition.

We are facing these problems now and trying to solve them in the best Dhamma way, to set an ideal for future generations to follow. With everything that is done, always keep in mind that the purity of Dhamma should not get spoiled. People should not make it a means of livelihood—that would be very dangerous. People should not take up service to increase their ego or pride, and then become haughty and start talking roughly with others. All this is for the benefit of responsible future principal teachers, because this is going to spread. We are seeing this happening now, and within one or two generations it will spread throughout the world.

If proper guidelines for this tradition are not made now, if proper principles are not laid down, it will be very harmful in the long run. This is the vinaya of the householder teachers. As different situations arise, more rules may come. Even at the time of Buddha, he made certain vinaya rules and then something happened requiring one more. And then something else happened requiring one more. In the same way, with experience, we have to keep on adding rules, changing rules, because this is as it is. But the whole aim is to keep the Dhamma mission totally pure. Nothing should go wrong. This is the only way by which I appoint people. §

Guruji, there is an apprehension that the pagoda now being constructed at Mumbai may turn Vipassana into another sect.

Yes, yes. Well, if this teacher has at least a few more years of life you will see that he will not allow anything we do to turn to sectarianism. If the pagoda becomes a tool for making Buddha’s teaching a sect, an organized religion, then all our teaching has gone to mud—we have not understood what Buddha’s teaching is. If this pagoda is used for people who come and pray, "Oh pagoda, please give me this, I need this," then the whole thing will become an organized religion, certainly.

How are we going to use the pagoda? It will be used in the proper way: For meditation and for the spread of Vipassana, so people learn what Vipassana is. Many people will come just out of curiosity wondering, "Such a magnificent building, what is inside it?" And when they go inside they will get some information, "Well look, this was the Buddha, this is what he taught, these things happened in his life, Vipassana made him a Buddha, and Vipassana made him a good Dhamma teacher for the whole world." People will get so much benefit.

If they get the inspiration to enquire about Vipassana, we will give information. Out of say 10,000 people who come, if even 100 get inspired to take a course, well 100 benefit and at least the rest get the right message. So we will see that this pagoda is not allowed to develop into another sect. Otherwise our purpose will be lost. §

The year 1999 is the birth centenary of Sayagyi U Ba Khin, and also your 75th birthday. How should we celebrate this important year?

Forget that 75th birthday, I am still alive! Give more importance to the centenary year. Wonderful, the centenary year of a real saint of this era! We must all keep thinking what the proper way to celebrate this is. One may think that we must write articles and books, and praise him saying, "What a wonderful saint he was." But that won’t help. How can more and more people get attracted to Vipassana, or at least come to know what it is, so that then they will get attracted to it? That is more important.

History will say what a wonderful person he was. History will say Ledi Sayadaw was a wonderful person because he was the first person who opened gates for ouseholders, and he made Saya Thetgyi the first lay teacher. Then came Sayagyi U Ba Khin, and he opened the gates to Vipassana for the whole world, telling his students, "Go and teach. Teach like this… like this." The entire world will feel so grateful to him. So the best thing now is that we give the greatest amount of information to make people aware of Vipassana. For this reason the pagoda is being built. §

Are new editions of the CD-ROM being planned? And does this have any relevance to paripatti?

Well, the first work is completed and I congratulate all those people who worked on this. This is not final, other versions will come out. But one point should be very clear with all those who are working on the project: For us the propagation of pariyatti is not the final aim. For us paripatti is the aim. Pariyatti will help.

Why have we collected all these scriptures? Because many books, many old scriptures were lost in China, Tibet and other countries. Who knows if more will get lost? If I look at a Pāli book printed about a 100 years back in Burma, many of the books listed in the references are no longer available. Within these 100 years so many books have been lost. Before more get lost, it is my duty to keep them alive by putting them on CD-ROM.

Now we have three scripts on CD-ROM and two more scripts will be added, and quite possibly four or five more. In all it might be six, seven, we cannot say. But when another two scripts and some more volumes are included—which may be completed in a few months—we will put it on the Internet and make it open for discussion.

What is the main purpose of that? Now Dhamma Giri is a world centre for paripatti and the Internet will be used by this centre for discussion on all aspects of paripatti. So we will start a sort of discussion on the Internet. We will put forward an item, and say, "We feel that bodily sensation is very important in the teaching of Buddha." People will respond, "No, no. The word ‘vedanā’ means ‘feeling’, the ‘feeling’ means ‘mind’." Let it come, let communication start in that way. If we are making a mistake, we don’t feel shy to rectify it. But if others have gone wrong somewhere, then at least they will learn what is the correct translation of what the Buddha said. This is only one example. There can be so many things like this that we can discuss. For instance, there is the question, what is ‘sampajañña’? Even the Atthakathās sometimes might have not have given the proper answer. For us, when there is a difference between Atthakathā and the Tipitaka, Tipitaka is more important.

Instead of Buddhaghosa I go to Buddha, "What do you say, sir? How should I understand this?"—not to Buddhaghosa. If the Atthakathās give a clear explanation, it is perfectly all right. But if the explanation is not clear, for me Buddha is more authentic. So all those things will come up now, with this international discussion which will start in a few months’ time as soon as we put it on the Internet. Now a wonderful thing has arisen because of this CD-ROM—here is one example: When I came to this country to fulfil my teacher’s wish that Vipassana should get established in India and then spread around the world, the first thing that came in my mind was, "I have come here to teach Buddha’s teaching as Dhamma, not as Buddhism. The moment I say I have come here to teach Buddhism, nobody will even listen to me, let alone spend ten days with me to learn it." But this was not strategy for me—it was my conviction, because Buddha was so very much against sectarianism.

After so many years, the CD-ROM came out and I asked somebody who was working on it, "Please look for the word ‘Bauddha’—that means Buddhist or Buddhism—is it written anywhere?" There are 146 volumes, more than 55,000 pages, millions of words—but not a single ‘Bauddha’ is there. "Buddhism" is never used anywhere— neither in Atthakathā, Tipitaka nor Tīkā—nowhere is this word found. Not at all. I was so happy.

How did the teaching of Buddha deteriorate? Now we have to investigate how this word Bauddha started. Who first used this word? To me—I am very frank—whoever first used the word Buddhism or Buddhist, in any language, was the biggest enemy of Buddha’s teaching. Because the teaching had been universal, and now out of ignorance, he made it sectarian. Buddhism is only for Buddhists but Dhamma is for all. The moment you say Buddhism, then you are making Buddha’s teaching limited to a certain group of people, which is totally wrong.

So we will make inquiries and discuss these things with people on the Internet. We will give information to people and if they have any other information, we’ll be able to get this from them. This centre here will become important for the discussion of Buddha’s teaching pertaining to Vipassana. If anything comes which is pertaining to any kind of philosophical arguments, we will say, "No, no, thank you. We don’t discuss that. We will discuss only things which will support the work of Vipassana." §

Many old students are teaching Anapana on their own, and some are even teaching Vipassana. Is it proper?

It is not proper, but what can we do? We don’t have any lawyer keeping control to say, "This is registered by Goenka and is his monopoly, this is his trademark." Nothing like that. And it should not be like that. Why? Because it is open for everybody.

But of course, we say that if you feel like spreading this to others, first get established in Dhamma yourself, and then get proper training as to how to teach. Get a proper training and then yes, teach. In spite of that, if somebody doesn’t agree, all right, be happy. What can we do? We won’t take any legal action, that is true. §

In your discourses you talk about 31 lokas but often this looks very speculative. Can this be understood at the level of sensations?

Certainly. The whole technique takes you to that stage where you will start feeling— some students, very few, but some have started feeling—"Now what sort of vibration am I experiencing?" And they understand a vibration of this particular loka is of this type, a vibration of that loka is of that type. And later on they can also go in much more detail.

But it is not necessary that one should first accept the reality of these 31 planes and only then will one progress in Dhamma. Nothing doing. People come to me from different traditions—there are traditions where they don’t believe in a past or future life. All right. Then I say, "Do you believe in this life? Yes. All right, work to improve this life. Later on, when you reach a stage where you can understand what a past or future life is—by experience—then accept it, not now." §

If one is given the opportunity to serve by doing some work which is against one’s nature, for example a person who likes to work with people is asked to work on a computer, is it wise to accept this work?

This is a problem for the management. No work should be imposed on anybody. People come here to give service. And suppose this person is not competent to do some particular work and you say, "No, you must only do this work." Then you are putting a barrier for the progress of this person. You are putting a barrier for the progress of the whole centre. This should never be done. But the management has to take care of this.

Of course nothing should be imposed on a Dhamma server. At the same time, the management has to be very careful. Suppose somebody comes here and says, "I will live here for six months or one year, but look, I can’t do this or this. I can’t do any service. I am here just to meditate twice a day and then the rest of the time I will gossip here, talk there and rest. After six months I will go away." No. Then this person has started harming himself or herself and also has started harming the centre. So we have to be very careful about this. But that does not mean that we impose work on somebody which one cannot do at all. §

Guruji, we have heard that you have agreed to be the chief guest at the unveiling of the statue of Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar [a well-known political leader responsible for the mass conversion of people from the untouchable caste into Buddhism, known later in India as neo-Buddhism] in Mumbai. We have an apprehension that this might give a signal that you are supporting a sectarian organization. Kindly clarify.

Well, if somebody calls me to be chief guest, how can I say, "Don’t make me a chief guest, make me a third-class guest?" All right, as chief guest I will sit there. But whatever I say there will be nothing which goes against pure Dhamma. I have great respect for Ambedkar because this was one person who achieved so much. For so many generations my forefathers and all the upper-class people have suppressed these people. What a great injustice has been done to them. I have all sympathy for them and I want them to develop in Dhamma.

But at the same time, what is pure Dhamma? They have not understood. So it is my duty to explain to them that this is pure Dhamma. So I made a condition, "If you invite me I will talk about Vipassana, nothing but Vipassana." And they said, "Wonderful. Speak only about Vipassana. We are inviting you for that purpose, so that people will know what Vipassana is, what the real teaching of Buddha is." All those people have been suppressed for generations. Babasaheb did a very good thing when he took them out of the caste system and gave them at least self-respect. But then the real teaching of Buddha is missing. If that also goes to them, wonderful. So I will play my role to bring the pure Dhamma to them. §

Is it not a violation of one of the eight precepts when an AT wears jewellery or impressive garments on the Dhamma seat?

Well, the ATs have not taken eight precepts, they are on five precepts. When the AT sits his own course, then he or she must be on eight precepts. Otherwise, assistant teachers can’t be on eight precepts all the time because they keep on giving courses here and there. That means they must live on eight precepts the whole life—no. The old students who are taking that course have to work according to the eight precepts, but the teacher, of course, must be very perfect in five precepts. §

Is having children a possible hindrance to progress in Dhamma?

Why a hindrance? Look after your children with Dhamma. You get a wonderful opportunity to give mettā to your children, and that will help you to give mettā to the whole world. It is not a hindrance. Mother Visākhā had twenty children, and still she developed so much. That doesn’t mean you should not have any family planning, but even with children you can progress in Dhamma. §

I don't like to see non-meditators divorce, but I find it especially disturbing when I see an established Dhamma couple in the West separate. Can you give us your advice?

It is certainly disturbing—to everybody, whether in the West or the East. You see, when you make a commitment with somebody, and you keep the door open—well, any time the male can run away or the female can run out—this is not an ideal family life. What about the children? They wonder, "Now whom shall I call my mother? Whom shall I call my father?" When I read the student forms when I was conducting courses, and saw somebody had written "three parents" I felt so sad for this person. That means this person never had the love of the mother or of father— they have gone away with somebody else.

So this is definitely anti-Dhamma, we are not going to encourage that. But it happens. Slowly we have to try to change. To me, this is the biggest curse of Western culture now. But at the same time, it should not be so rigid that one is bound and cannot separate if a particular situation has come about. If you separate, then you take the vow, "I will not marry again. I have tried married life, finished. Now I will live the life of celibacy." Wonderful. Then divorce is allowed. §

Could you give some advice to mothers with infants who are struggling to keep up their practice and who are distressed by the fact that they can’t do so?

Why can’t they do so? The child is on the lap and still you can practise. You can give mettā to the child, you can give mettā to others. You must learn in every situation how you can carry on practising your Dhamma. Use Dhamma for all your duties. A mother’s duty is to look after the child. Do this in a Dhamma way. This will help. § I have heard students wonder why teachers and ATs dine separately and are given very congenial accommodation during courses.

Why are they given congenial accommodation? Understand, we can’t provide congenial facilities for every student. A student comes for ten days only, but the teacher has to live there for months, or years, and if you don’t give the necessary facilities, then how can he or she teach properly? So it is not a luxury, but a necessity. We have to provide certain facilities for them, more than what is given to the students. §

Kindly explain again why you say that self-sex is a breakage of sīla.

Well, I don’t say that self-sex is breaking sīla, but it leads you towards breaking of sīla. It means you have become a slave of your passion—if you don’t get anything else, then you start using self-sex. That will take you further on the wrong path. So we try to take people out from this and out of passion. That is the aim of Vipassana. §

How does one find the balance between selfless service and taking care of oneself?

[Laughs] If one cannot take care of oneself, what service will one give? First take care of yourself, and then start giving selfless service. §

In the teaching of Vipassana, in the theoretical aspect, there are many things which don’t seem appropriate. For example, there is the mention of innumerable lives of the Enlightened One and his supernormal powers. Is it necessary to accept all this before getting the benefits of Vipassana?

It is not necessary. As I said just now, people come here who don’t believe in past or future lives, and still they progress. People need not accept it. But as a responsible teacher, with whatever experience and understanding I have, I have to place before them the facts as they are. I cannot say just to please people, "Oh no, there is no past life, there is no future life, there is nothing." Then I would be misleading people. So I have to be very careful. People may or may not accept, it is not my problem. §

When you get a birth in deva realms, are you born to deva parents in the human way?

When I get such a birth I will come and tell you. Why now? [Laughs] §

Why did the Buddha hesitate initially to ordain females?

Ask Buddha, not me. But you must understand the situation of that time. You see, there was no security at all. Even business people going from one city to the other had to pass through jungles where there were only dacoits [bandits] and other dangers. And we see so many cases of rape happening—even of those who had taken vows and become nuns—not only in the Buddha’s tradition, but in other traditions also. So naturally he advised that in such a situation you practise the same thing living at home. And he taught all his own family members while they lived at home. They became sotāpanna, and from sotāpanna the father became an arahant. Although the progress is slower, you can continue. But when they insisted, and Ānanda also insisted, then he had to agree to that. But that was the main reason. Nothing else.

Even now, in most of the countries, women are not allowed in the Sangha. What can I do if the Sangha is lost there? If the Bhikkhunī Sangha is lost, who will start it? There is a tradition that says five bhikkhus should be together to initiate somebody as a bhikkhu. Similarly five bhikkhunīs are needed to iniate a bhikkhunī. If there are no bhikkhunīs at all, what can be done? This is not my responsibility. My responsibility is to teach Dhamma. Whether someone is a bhikkhunī or a laywoman, it makes no difference to me, I teach them. §

Do we have any control over finding a Dhamma partner, or is it all kamma?

If so, you might say, "It is all kamma. Why should I work for my food? Now it is breakfast time. Well my kamma, bring me my breakfast!" Is it possible? One has to work, but work in a proper way. Don’t start running after everybody looking for a partner. That is not the way. Work for it in a proper, balanced way. §

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